tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post5805238384633785069..comments2023-05-28T00:35:10.438-07:00Comments on Libbie Hawker: The old Men Vs. Women debate.Libbie H.http://www.blogger.com/profile/16366896974551157202noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-3163559362330069552011-07-25T13:29:59.928-07:002011-07-25T13:29:59.928-07:00"Also, men's fiction is basically all in ..."Also, men's fiction is basically all in general fiction. Much of what is in women's fiction could be considered 'literary' too - but either marketing teams decide women would be the core audience, or that men wouldn't read it in gen fic, so it gets marketed specifically towards women instead. "<br /><br />And that's exactly the point I was making in my blog post. Whatever the reason for spinning it out into women's fiction, the end result is that it pulls those books out of the running for literary awards. It's not a fucking sexist conspiracy, and I'm sick of people insisting it is. <br /><br />As for how the words "bleating" and "shrieking" are used, maybe in BizarroUniverse they're only applied to women. I apply them to anybody who bleats or shrieks, and I've known plenty of men who bleat and shriek, and I call them on it when they do. It's really interesting that you can't see at all that people can and do apply any fucking word they want to use to anybody. Words themselves are not inherently sexist.Libbie H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16366896974551157202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-16272297968899908522011-07-16T04:47:37.944-07:002011-07-16T04:47:37.944-07:00First, I don't think you have to write about l...First, I don't think you have to write about lit fic to know about or be interested in what's going on there.<br /><br />Second, re: "Would you still consider those words ["bleating" and "shrieking"] sexist if I'd applied them to men? Ask yourself that. <br /><br />The point is not that the words are inherently sexist, but that people very rarely apply them to men. You are using them in a sexist way. It's really interesting that you can't see that at all. To me that is 'la la la', fingers in ears.<br /><br />Also, men's fiction is basically all in general fiction. Much of what is in women's fiction could be considered 'literary' too - but either marketing teams decide women would be the core audience, or that men wouldn't read it in gen fic, so it gets marketed specifically towards women instead.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-33502897230919367102011-07-13T05:50:56.508-07:002011-07-13T05:50:56.508-07:00And by the way, I did not "blame" women ...And by the way, I did not "blame" women for writing "lighter" fiction. I pointed out that people should write whatever they enjoy writing. <br /><br />Thanks for intentionally misreading my post, though.Libbie H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16366896974551157202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-88029980477205193922011-07-13T05:48:13.973-07:002011-07-13T05:48:13.973-07:00"(Well, the fact that you assume that the wom..."(Well, the fact that you assume that the women who were taking issue with the way awards are given out even write those kinds of books says a lot.)"<br /><br />REALLY?? I'm a woman and I write the kind of books that win the kind of awards we're discussing here. I "assume" that women who write light fiction freak out about this issue because I've seen it happen many, many times before, on AW and elsewhere. I admit I did not read every post in the 11-page thread to be certain that's what was going on. <br /><br />It is my experience that when people complain about this "issue" they are not writing in the category of literary fiction, and therefore are less aware of what is going on in literary fiction. The people, male and female, who are involved in lit fic tend not to see this as a sexism problem but as a numbers problem. (Tend. There are still people who do consider it a sexism problem, but the majority I've talked to think it's just because men outnumber women in lit fic.)<br /><br />"Your use of the words like "bleating" and "shrieking" are sexist as well, when all people are doing are disagreeing with you."<br /><br />Would you still consider those words sexist if I'd applied them to men? Ask yourself that. <br /><br />They are not merely disagreeing with me; they are misunderstanding a fundamental problem with the industry that affects EVERYBODY, male and female. Namely, the narrow categorization of fiction that has happened over the past 10 - 15 years. And every time I point it out, they stick their fingers in their ears and say "La la la la la, nope, can't be anything but sexism." That's childish.<br /><br />"It's highly unlikely that that was the woman's choice to be put in a certain area of the bookstore. Nope, pretty sure those parts of the publishing industry are male dominated."<br /><br />That is absolutely ridiculous. You're making a kneejerk assumption because you want to believe the industry is inherently SEXIST -- not flawed, not stupidly managed, but maliciously, intentionally SEXIST. <br /><br />If anything, the industry is sexist toward men in the area of category/genre narrowing. Where is the "Men's Fiction" category? Where are the books marketed solely toward men? <br /><br />Women buy more books, so it makes sense as a BUSINESS decision to market more specifically toward them. That's not a smart artistic decision or a smart cultural decision, but if you consider only the bottom line, which businesses do, it's a smart business decision.<br /><br />I am a skeptic by nature, and I need EVIDENCE -- real EVIDENCE -- before I'll believe a claim. If you think the industry is intentionally, maliciously anti-female -- an industry, I should add, that's dominated by women -- show me the evidence. "Men win more literary fiction awards" isn't evidence. Or at least it's merely a correlation, not a causation. I've already pointed out that the categorization of women's fiction and the dilution of the lit fic pool is just as much a correlation, so what evidence do you have for believing sexism over short-sighted marketing schemes? Show me. If the evidence is strong enough, I'll believe anything.<br /><br />I agree that writers don't ask for their books to be narrowly categorized, but that might well be because they're unaware it's happening. Raising awareness is the first step toward changing that.<br /><br />"So I'm confused as to why you're blaming women for writing certain things when apparently even if they wrote the "right" thing they'd still get shoved out of consideration due to sexism . . .? I think that was part of the point of the women you are apparently disagreeing with."<br /><br />NO. It is not SEXISM but a fundamental flaw in the industry that pigeonholes women writers and books with women characters into awards-inaccessible categories.<br /><br />"Am I misunderstanding your argument?"<br /><br />YES.Libbie H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16366896974551157202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-29323704046294522732011-07-12T20:32:29.278-07:002011-07-12T20:32:29.278-07:00"And yes, I think the women who write vampire..."And yes, I think the women who write vampire novels and quirky shopping books are "shrieking" and being unfair and unreasonable when they piss and moan about their books not receiving the same critical acclaim as literary fiction. Those books wouldn't do as well critically or with major awards whether a man or a woman wrote them."<br /><br />I did not take that thread as women who write about vampires and shopping demanding THEIR books in THOSE genres be nominated for the awards being discussed. (Well, the fact that you assume that the women who were taking issue with the way awards are given out even write those kinds of books says a lot.) Mistri is correct, they are probably advocating on behalf of women like you who are apparently writing books that would qualify for the awards. <br /><br />Your use of the words like "bleating" and "shrieking" are sexist as well, when all people are doing are disagreeing with you.<br /><br />Interestingly enough, in that same comment you take issue with arguably lit fic being pushed into the women's fiction category, thereby removing them from consideration for awards. It's highly unlikely that that was the woman's choice to be put in a certain area of the bookstore. Nope, pretty sure those parts of the publishing industry are male dominated. It's like authors who write about black characters probably not asking their books to be shoved in the "African American Literature" section which likely takes them out of the running for awards and most customers' attention. <br /><br />So I'm confused as to why you're blaming women for writing certain things when apparently even if they wrote the "right" thing they'd still get shoved out of consideration due to sexism . . .? I think that was part of the point of the women you are apparently disagreeing with. Am I misunderstanding your argument?s.m.shttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17635895160119121069noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-11556322943469412362011-07-12T09:47:56.036-07:002011-07-12T09:47:56.036-07:00First I have to apologise - I totally did skim you...First I have to apologise - I totally did skim your post, and you're right I did misread it.<br /><br />I still don't think the writers of vampire and shopping books are 'shrieking' though (at least I haven't seen them specifically complain about their own type of books being ignored), but we'll have to disagree on that :). I mean, my current WIP is an urban fantasy and I would never dream of complaining about being bypassed for an award for it. I think if women of lighter books are complaining on the topic, maybe they're doing so on behalf of the books/female authors they think are worthy?<br /><br />Much of the rest of my post was um, irrelevant considering I read you incorrectly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-88554873231659438082011-07-12T05:27:48.167-07:002011-07-12T05:27:48.167-07:00Mistri, I know my post was very long but I don'...Mistri, I know my post was very long but I don't think you actually read it and just skimmed it instead. Because this:<br /><br />"You think women's books are potentially just not that good; they think women's books are being overlooked. I think there's a middle-ground somewhere."<br /><br />is inaccurate. I DO think that women's books are just as good, potentially and actually. And as for everybody wondering WHY they're being overlooked, I posited a reason in my long blog post. I will try to summarize it here:<br /><br />In the industry, "literary fiction" has become a dumping ground for stuff that doesn't fit anywhere else. Publishers will work very hard to market any book that MIGHT fit into any category or genre other than lit fic as anything other than lit fic so that it can be more easily shopped. With the advent of the Women's Fiction label, a good chunk of the great books written by women are being siphoned out of the Lit Fic pool and into a clearly labeled category, where they are no such strong candidates for major awards simply because they are not being sold as Lit Fic. Meanwhile, there is no corresponding category for male writers' works, so NUMERICALLY more men's books are available for these awards. <br /><br />Critical acclaim and award-winning has become a numbers game. If dramatically more men have books with the correct category label on them for these awards, then dramatically more men will win them. <br /><br />And yes, I think the women who write vampire novels and quirky shopping books are "shrieking" and being unfair and unreasonable when they piss and moan about their books not receiving the same critical acclaim as literary fiction. Those books wouldn't do as well critically or with major awards whether a man or a woman wrote them.<br /><br />Jonathan -- Literary awards and good reviews by major book critics, the kind that are always at the heart of the issue when this subject comes up, are seldom about wild plots or saving the world or explosions or KRAWWWW! KABLAMMMM!!! The themes tend to be more internal and the action less gripping and more sedate whether men or women wrote the books.<br /><br />As or "women's themes" not being gripping enough, you read my partial manuscript and said you couldn't put it down, and that you kept thinking about the character and her problem long after you'd stopped reading. I'd say Baptism for the Dead is nothing but "women's themes." So there must be times when women write about women's problems and those problems are still gripping, eh? ;)Libbie H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16366896974551157202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-67388698382956500492011-07-11T18:42:21.778-07:002011-07-11T18:42:21.778-07:00As I believe I stated in that thread, I couldn'...As I believe I stated in that thread, I couldn't care less whether a man or a woman wrote a book. If it's good, I'll read it.<br /><br />That being said, I think there's a definite difference between women writers and "women's themes", the key difference being there isn't a lot of gripping plot waiting to happen in most of them. It's far easier to churn forward with a wild plot when you're out doing "manly" things like saving the world.Jonathan Dalarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08001176878191347542noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-13369194144399662172011-07-11T06:18:51.704-07:002011-07-11T06:18:51.704-07:00wInteresting post. I guess I'm generally on th...wInteresting post. I guess I'm generally on the side of the whiny women, though (as you will have seen through my posts on said thread). I don't like the way that female writers ho debate this are apparently 'bleating', 'whiny' or here - 'shrieking'. <br /><br />In many cases, I actually think your vantage point and theirs are a lot more similar than you might think. They're not just wailing and whining. They want to look at *why* too - they're just coming at it from a slightly different angle. <br /><br />You think women's books are potentially just not that good; they think women's books are being overlooked. I think there's a middle-ground somewhere.<br /><br />I agree that marketing is potentially a problem - and then many women try (or have to?) to fit those marketing slots of 'chick-lit' or 'women's fic' or whatever and perhaps it doesn't leave a lot of room for 'awesome, culturally relevant fic'.<br /><br />At the same time, I think women are a lot more prepared to see universal truth in a man's work than vice versa - that's the unconscious bias people are talking about.<br /><br />You disagree, but I don't personally agree that we're 'shrieking' about it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-8939934285057363252011-07-11T04:44:06.173-07:002011-07-11T04:44:06.173-07:00My mom and I were just talking about how recent th...My mom and I were just talking about how recent the feminism movement was a couple of weeks ago. I didn't know that my grandmother (along with another woman in the suit) was the first woman to successfully sue over sex discrimination in Washington State. Also, when my grandma got divorced the judge didn't grant her any alimony because he deemed her so attractive that she'd find another husband quickly. Wow. Really?! My grandma is still alive! It's not like we're talking about somebody who lived long ago! And for the record, she never remarried.<br /><br />Nabokov rules!!<br /><br />I read the description of SHINE, SHINE, SHINE from Publisher's Lunch posted on your blog. It sounds awesome! I can't wait to read it.Libbie H.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16366896974551157202noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2754679694716848803.post-70998051578246113112011-07-10T16:31:22.367-07:002011-07-10T16:31:22.367-07:00Great post. Great ideas. I particularly like your ...Great post. Great ideas. I particularly like your battle cry. There's something to be said for putting your head down and writing a kickass book, rather than trying to figure out if someone will like it or not because you're a girl. <br /><br />The other thing is... when you think about it, in the grand scheme of things, feminism JUST happened. Fifty years in from second wave feminism, we can't expect women to be uniformly up to speed in terms of creating superior literary work, and we can't expect "the establishment" to be completely acclimatized to what superior work looks like coming from a woman. <br /><br />Sidenote: I am a major Nabokov fan too!Lydia Netzerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11448861273955788158noreply@blogger.com